在加拿大
http://openparliament.ca/committees/finance/41-1/66/lorne-waldman-11/#/committees/finance/41-1/66/?page=2 理性对待，不准骂人，否则请版主删帖！
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反馈:绿橄榄, xzh6339, hellangels 和 6 其他人 2012-06-11#2 B 1,238 $0.00 回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)先谢谢K妹妹评论
06年底简表递HK07年5月16日FN VO LCY11年再考YS，自评67分S2 快来吧回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)顶
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信息收集贴回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)Thank you for the opportunity to be here today. It's a privilege to appear before the committee.Like two of the other speakers, I'm here to talk briefly about the immigration measures, but one thing I want to make clear is that I'm not here to enter into a debate about immigration policy with people like Mr. Grady. I'm here to address what I believe is a simple moral issue, and it's simply this: I think the government has a duty to keep its promises and has a duty to speak in a clear way to all the people it deals with, and to be transparent in its dealings with those it deals with. I'm sure this is a principle that people on both sides of the House would agree with. I believe it should apply to all people Canada deals with, including those who are outside of Canada.If we talk about the backlog, these people were encouraged to apply and were told they would be processed. Many of the people have received numerous communications since that time and were continuously led to believe that they would be processed.I understand the government's dilemma. They believe they have a better selection process. As a passing remark, I should say that I've heard that one before. In my 30 years, I think this must be about the seventh or eighth different selection process the government has invented, and it's always the best one, but eventually, a few years later, it's scrapped for something else. But that's not the issue here.The issue here is that, in my view, the government.... This is where, with all due respect, I disagree with my dear friend Mr. Kurland, in that I believe that the government has a duty to be transparent and clear, and they failed to do so in this case. Because of that, what they're doing is wrong.很感谢今天能在这里。能够参加今天的会议是我的荣幸。象其他2位发言人一样，我今天来讨论移民措施。但是有一点我要说清楚，我今天来不是为了跟Mr. G之流就移民问题争论。我今天来是要讲讲我认为不道德的行为，很简单：我认为加拿大政府有责任信守承诺，有责任对他处理的申请者一个清楚的说法，有责任对申请者保持公开透明。我认为这是参众2院都会赞同的一个原则。我相信它适用于跟加拿大打交道的所有人，包括加拿大以外的人们。说道积案，所有的申请者都被鼓励申请移民，并被告知他们的申请会被处理。关于分数，这我已经不是第一次听说。在我执业的30年中，政府已经发明了不下7,8种评分流程，每次都宣称是最好的。然而最终，几年之后，都因为这样或那样的原因失败而被废止。当然，这不是今天讨论的主题。今天的问题是？？？（最关键的没写？）这是我跟我亲爱的朋友Mr K先生有分歧的地方。我认为政府有责任公开透明，但是在这个事情上，它没有做到。因此，政府错了！
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FN:2007.11S2:2009.1212:2010.4回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)Wayne Marston Hamilton EastStoney Creek, ONThank you, Mr. Chair.Once again we're looking at a variety of issues: international aid, the environment, immigration, housing, financing, and citizen input. When you have five minutes, you ask yourself where you should start. So I'm going to stick to immigration.Mr. Waldman, have you seen any evidence that the government really, truly understands the damage it has done to Canada's reputation by cancelling the applicant list?Lorne WaldmanNo. I mean, I'm shocked; there's going to be another big demonstration in Hong Kong within the next few days.I was a class counsel the last time they tried to eliminate the backlog, so people found my e-mail and e-mailed me. I've seen literally hundreds of e-mails from people around the world just outraged about how the government is treating them so unfairly. As I said, something has to be done about the backlog, but just completely eliminating it in such a callous fashion....It's ironic, because we've been told for years, or the government's been telling people for yearsthis is respective governments, not just this onethat there's a queue, and that the way to come to Canada is to apply, go into this queue, and wait.All these people did what the government told them to do. They applied and they waited. They were led to believe, through repeated communications, that their applications would be processed. They followed what the government said. They waited in the queue. And now, after waiting, some of them for as long as eight years, they've been told, “Sorry, this queue no longer exists. Your applications are being terminated.”That's not just. That's not the Canadian way. This really tarnishes Canada's image.NDP：LW先生，你看到有证据表明加拿大政府真的了解了一刀切对加拿大的声誉所带来的巨大影响么？LW：没有！我很震惊。接下来的几天，在香港会有另外一个盛大的集会（抗议一刀切）。上次他们企图清理积案的时候，我是集体诉讼的代理，所以这些申请人找到了我的邮箱跟我联系。此后我收到来自世界各地的上百封邮件指出加拿大政府对他们是多么的不公平。就像我说的，我们应该积极地对待积案，而不是如此无情地实施一刀切。很讽刺的是，几年以来我们一直被告知，或者说加拿大政府一直在告知人们这是一个让人尊敬的政府。大家按秩序排队：你要先申请，然后排好队，然后耐心等待。。。这些人按照加拿大政府的要求去做了，他们申请了，他们耐心地等待。期间被不断地告知：他们的申请会被处理。他们遵循加拿大政府的指示，他们耐心地排队等候。好了现在，经过耐心的等待，有些人甚至登了8年，他们被告知：对不起，没有什么队了，你的申请被终止。这根本不是公平，这不是加拿大的做事方式，这让加拿大的形象蒙羞！
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FN:2007.11S2:2009.1212:2010.4回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)Lorne WaldmanThe problem with trying to improve the selection process.... As I said, I've been practising immigration law for 30 years, so I've been through a lot of governments of all different stripes telling me this is the one that's going to work. I understand the minister's idea about a just-in-time system. I hope it works. I have serious reservations about it, which I could discuss at another time.My issue is a different one, though. My issue is simply that these people were told over many years. My view is it's immoral, it's wrong, for the government to tell these people now that they can't come.
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FN:2007.11S2:2009.1212:2010.4回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)thanks, LW的发言太好了，那个北京MM的信也写得非常好。
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When nothing goes right...go left回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)Brian Jean Fort McMurrayAthabasca, ABThank you, Mr. Chair.I have just a couple of questions. Try not to be too tough on time, please. Maybe start that after I am done.Mr. Waldman, you are an immigration lawyer in Toronto?10:35 a.m.As an IndividualLorne WaldmanThat's correct.10:35 a.m.ConservativeBrian Jean Fort McMurrayAthabasca, ABIs it true that you are seeking class action certification to sue the Government of Canada in relation to the immigration reforms?10:35 a.m.As an IndividualLorne WaldmanThere is a case management conference today with a judge in the Federal Court on the issue of whether or not we're going to be able to proceed with that matter. I'm representing some people who are considering challenging this legislation.10:35 a.m.ConservativeBrian Jean Fort McMurrayAthabasca, ABThat's a good way of saying yes. I am a lawyer too, but I can read through that. Thank you very much for that information. So you are planning on suing the Government of Canada over immigration reforms.I'd like to talk to the other people who came here today to talk about immigration. Should immigration laws be for Canadians or should they be for the immigrants?Mr. Lee, would you please comment on that?Brian：LW先生，你是来自多伦多的移民律师对吗？LW：是的Brian：你是打算针对加拿大的移民改革而发起集体诉讼起诉加拿大政府么？LW：我们今天在联邦法院跟起诉管理法官有一个会议讨论集体诉讼的可行性。我代表准备挑战立法的起诉者。Brian：那就是了。我也是一位律师所以我了解。感谢你的信息，所以你是打算针对加拿大的移民改革而发起诉讼起诉加拿大政府。我想问一下来参加移民讨论的各位：加拿大的移民法是为加拿大人民而设还是为众申请者而设？
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FN:2007.11S2:2009.1212:2010.4回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)Lorne WaldmanI read you the story of this woman who contacted me. There are hundreds of people like that. That's why we went to court, because we want to try to protect their rights against what we think are the immoral actions of this government.In terms of your specific question of the costs, there are the direct costs of the application fees. Then there is the cost of the English language test that most of them took. There is the cost of travelling to get the documentation. Then there are the other costs. In countries like China, when you tell them you're emigrating, you lose your opportunity for advancement. One person lost his job and it cost him several hundred thousand dollars of income.我刚读了联系我的一位申请人的故事，她背后还有成千上万的类似的申请人。这是为什么我们选择起诉，因为我们要反对政府不道德的行为，保护申请者应有的权利。关于你提出的费用问题，有申请相关的直接费，有语言考试费用，有准备材料所需要的差旅费以及其他的相关费用。在中国或类似的国际，一旦你通知公司你要移民，你在公司的职业发展机会就没有了。有一位申请者失去了工作，随之失去的是几十万的收入。
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FN:2007.11S2:2009.1212:2010.4回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)10:45 a.m.NDPHoang Mai BrossardLa Prairie, QCWill those costs be reimbursed?10:45 a.m.As an IndividualLorne WaldmanNone of those costs is ever going to be reimbursed, just the application fee.先翻译简单的：NDP（反对党）问：那些费用会被补偿么？Lorne Waldman：那些费用（申请相关的费用：考试费，差旅费，材料费公证费，以及因此带来的损失）不会被补偿，只退申请费。
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FN:2007.11S2:2009.1212:2010.4回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)Lorne WaldmanI'll make two points. First of all, I don't disagree that things need to be done and I don't disagree with the idea of reform.I have two concerns. First of all, I think what we're doing is wrong.10:55 a.m.ConservativeThe Chair James RajotteWhat would you do, though? That's my question to you.10:55 a.m.As an IndividualLorne WaldmanWell, I think Mr. Kurland gave you the kernel of an idea. I think there are things that can be done. When the last backlog was mitigated, in the end there was a settlement that allowed the government to slowly process that backlog over a long period of time so that it didn't gum up the new system. I think Mr. Kurland's idea is one that has some merit.To just completely eliminate the backlog is morally wrong. Let me just give you three things. One, you have to speak clearly and with transparency so that everyone knows the rules. If the rules are that we're going to retroactively change things, make that clear in the future so that people don't plan their lives around expectations that are then dashed.For sure, reform the system. Some of these reforms may work; they may not. Mr. Kurland seems to think they will. I have more doubts, but let's give them a try.You haven't really dealt with the problem, which is why most of the people come into your office, and it's the problem of family reunification. None of these reforms do anything to make family reunification easier.
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FN:2007.11S2:2009.1212:2010.4回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)Lorne Waldman As an IndividualThank you for the opportunity to be here today. It's a privilege to appear before the committee.Like two of the other speakers, I'm here to talk briefly about the immigration measures, but one thing I want to make clear is that I'm not here to enter into a debate about immigration policy with people like Mr. Grady. I'm here to address what I believe is a simple moral issue, and it's simply this: I think the government has a duty to keep its promises and has a duty to speak in a clear way to all the people it deals with, and to be transparent in its dealings with those it deals with. I'm sure this is a principle that people on both sides of the House would agree with. I believe it should apply to all people Canada deals with, including those who are outside of Canada.If we talk about the backlog, these people were encouraged to apply and were told they would be processed. Many of the people have received numerous communications since that time and were continuously led to believe that they would be processed.I understand the government's dilemma. They believe they have a better selection process. As a passing remark, I should say that I've heard that one before. In my 30 years, I think this must be about the seventh or eighth different selection process the government has invented, and it's always the best one, but eventually, a few years later, it's scrapped for something else. But that's not the issue here.The issue here is that, in my view, the government.... This is where, with all due respect, I disagree with my dear friend Mr. Kurland, in that I believe that the government has a duty to be transparent and clear, and they failed to do so in this case. Because of that, what they're doing is wrong.I thought the best way to illustrate this would be to tell the story of one of my clients. She sent me an e-mail and gave me permission to read it. This will take me a minute or two to read. I thought it would just illustrate this. She says as follows:Until today, I can still remember vividly that date of November 17, 2007, even though it was almost four and a half years ago. It was on that date that our family of threeat that time, my son was still in primary schoolwent to the post office and sent out our application forms, together with the payment, with a great hope for the future. On the way back, we discussed excitedly the new adventure we were going to have in Canada, the new school life, the animals playing around the house, possibly the new member of the family.I remember that she was from China. Under their one-child policy, she couldn't have a second child in China, so she was hoping to come to Canada so she could have that second child. She had other choices, but she chose Canada. She says:On November 26, 2007, we got the acknowledgement from the visa office confirming receipt, informing us of the next step, and telling us to start our preparation for moving to Canada. So we were excited and thought that our new life was about to emerge.We started the preparation. We got to know other applicants through the Internet, we improved our language capacity, and we invested in getting certificates that we knew would help us in our job opportunities in Canada.Two years from that time, another milestone was reached. On December 4, 2009, we got the request letter from the visa office in Beijing asking us to submit our full package of documents. To us, this is one step closer to the dream come true. We spent enormous time and effortfor which they will of course not be compensated, I note.in preparing the needed documents. We had to schedule the exams for an English test, travel to different cities to get documents, and we had to ask relatives and friends for support in hard places to reach due to the time constraints.That's because they're only given a short period of time to get the documents. She continues:Different from the past two years, where we had kept the application confidential, we had to tell our supervisors and the human resources teams about the move so that they could help us to improve our work experience, and of course that impacted negatively on our career development because companies were no longer willing to invest in our future knowing that we were going to be leaving soon.Again, we, the family of three, went to the post office and mailed off this package full of joy and full of expectation that soon we would be in Canada. At this time my son was in middle school. We waited and waited and waited, confident in our result, not only because of the waves of affirmation and correspondence we received from the visa office, but also because of the justice and fairness we valuedbecause that's why we chose Canada as our destination.I have always trusted that Canada would eventually welcome us, like what the visa office shared with us. It was just a matter of time. Because of that trust, we gave up opportunities to go to other countries, and we could have applied under new streams, but we saw no reason to do so. No one suggested to us that we should. We waited our time in the queue
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When nothing goes right...go left回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)顶
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回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)先贴完，等有时间回头慢慢翻译。有兴趣的同学可以直接去看现场的视频。
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FN:2007.11S2:2009.1212:2010.4回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)这个发言与我从保守主义立场写的评论，大体一致。 Unfair Canadian immigration policy Recently, the Canadian Conservative government proposed bill C38 in March,and It has since been widely criticized domestically and internationally. The articles 87.3 and 87.4 of this bill, if passed at the end of this month , will force the withdrawal of all the past immigration applications (in the "91" category). many immigration applicants from China held a series of hunger strikes in Hong Kong a few days ago, protesting the Canadian government failing to keep its promise and discriminating against asians. As a Chinese scholar studying western ideology and culture, I would like to briefly express some of my opinions on this matter. I believe that this immigration policy, even from the conservative point of view, is difficult to justify, and it can seriously damage the long tradition and reputation of western civilization.1.Although the famous conservative politician Edmund Burke admitted that prejudices include some of the special wisdom, he and other conservatives believe that Conservatism is the gentleman's cause. It means that the basic premise is to keep the promise and cherish the reputation. 2. The provisions aiming at gaining benefits from immigration or enhancing "national interest" show vulgar utilitarianism and even Machiavellian tendency. The latter is of great concern as the political philosopher Leo. Strauss has already convincingly demonstrated the Machiavelli doctrine is the primary factor that subverts the idea of Conservatism. The departure of the provisions from the classical spirit advocated by Socrates and Plato is also evident as it contradicts the supreme criterion based on justice or natural right. 3. These terms and alternative assessment method are both arbitrary and bureaucratic.In fact, CIC officials may not understand well the applicants and their ideas. especially it is difficult to understand the complexities of China, For example, they completely ignore the most important factor: the applicants' cultural identity and sense of belonging to Canada. On the contrary, The modern principle of first-wait-first-served is both natural and justthat is precisely a concrete manifestation of the spirit of freedom and spontaneous order of Friedrich von Hayek. Just like the Mayflower coming to the North America in the seventeenth century!Last but not least, Conservative MP should review the teaching of Edmund Burke: prudence is the cardinal political virtue. Our understanding of this is that when we can not prove being able to do better, maintaining the status quo is the best option.
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回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)先支持，等慢慢来看
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慢慢来，一切都会好的。回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)可惜这次会议只有音频，没有视频：http://www.parl.gc.ca/CommitteeBusiness/CommitteeMeetings.aspx?Cmte=FINA&Mode=1&ControlCallback=pvuWebcast&Parl=41&Ses=1&Organization=FINA&MeetingNumber=66&Language=E&NoJavaScript=true
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FN:2007.11S2:2009.1212:2010.4回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)顶！很好！
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回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)希望LW的精彩陈述对这些直接投票的议员产生良好的影响
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回复: Mr. Waldman代表28万人在议会的发言(5/31)顶
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