加拿大华人论坛 加拿大留学移民美国投资移民 - 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录

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www.eb-5center.comOctober 16, 2012 USCIS EB-5 Stakeholders Meeting/Teleconference Unofficial Notes:Panels: Rob Silvers, Senior Counsel; Rose Prince, Kevin Bazaire, Claudia Salem (?), John Miles, Rosemary Melville, Blake Goto and Kevin Cummings.Rose Prince:New Section Chief for EB-5 and two upgraded supervisory officers, meaning 6 teams for EB-5 Unit. Federal economists and contracted economist and corporate and business attorneys. Tries to streamline EB-5 adjudications. Back-log in adjudications exist for pending RC cases for multiple investors common to NCE.移民局审查EB-5申请有6组， 包括移民局的经济学家和外聘的经济学家，公司法和商业法的律师。 努力简化EB-5的审查。待批的区域中心里众多投资人新成立的(区域中心)项目企业的移民审批有案件积压的情况存在。In-take teams for I-924s to go over economic issues. Review Board composed of Supervisory Officers and Economists. NOIDs and invitation for interviews.Processing Times: FIFO manner generally. Operational short-term holds for first cases for the same NCE to address the entire group of cases for the same NCE. Also, if an amendment is filed, then a hold will follow for I-924 team and adjudicators to work together. 审批时间：一般是先递交，先批准。 新项目中首批递交的申请会暂停审批，整个项目的申请一起审查。如果区域中心递交了修正案，整个项目的审批会暂停。Rob Silvers:Conversation with Mayorkas and Rob Silvers to follow next week regarding new "wholesale" policy and draft memo to address many issues and processing times in light of increased work load. I-526s number of adjudications doubled from last year. I-924 adjudication processing times is a key focus, especially involving "tenant-occupancy" issues. USCIS received number of RFE responses which raise different and sometimes conflicting issues for different projects. These are being discussed with other agencies, such as economic agencies, to be decided. USCIS will approve where they believe jobs will be created and will deny where they believe jobs are not being created. One important issue touching upon integrity of EB-5 Program is their SEC compliance, namely solicitation of Units within the United States requiring registration with SEC or state agencies. USCIS will exercise appropriate vigilance and work with SEC and refer cases. Other issues exist and USCIS will work with "other" regulatory agencies. USCIS has not been holding adjudication due to this extension of the RC Program.Rose Prince:Questions submitted in advance. Multiple RFEs and time sensitivity of EB-5 projects. But RFE responses sometimes may generate new issues, so that's why multiple RFEs are necessary. All RFEs are reviewed by supervisors. NAICS codes: how many digits are required? Four digit is good level of detail to evaluate projects. Additional specificity may be required, and I-924 approval notice will list NAICS codes. More numbers mean more details. Construction projects: Burden of proof on how to meet more than 2 years of construction activities can be met by expenditures and localized conditions over the 2 years timeline. Date of construction commences when the hard construction begins. Architectural and soft costs need to be separated out from "hard" construction costs. If not, RFEs will follow.Kevin (Policy Officer):Troubled Business: Pre-investment number of full-time jobs (not same jobs) must be maintained. What if the escrow account is used? AFM provisions should apply to troubled business as well. No distinction between full-time or part-time employees, which means part-time employees cannot be laid off either. It's net loss for all employees, not just full-time. Outside US employees are irrelevant, so reduction of these employees are allowed.NCE must show new direct jobs in TEA and geographic boundary of RC. But does not apply to indirect jobs, i.e., can be outside TEA.区域中心新项目企业必须说明在TEA和区域中心范围里创造了直接就业。间接就业可以在TEA之外Two NCE entities existing before Nov 1990 can merge into one company after Nov. 1990 -- not allowed to count as a NCE, without substantial restructuring or reorganization.Derivative spouse or children: Follow-to-join for derivatives if PA's I-829 is approved. Age-out issue is not connected to capital investment issue.John Miles & Claudia: Bridge loans and Sustaining Investment and Job Creation Timing. Limits to use of bridge loans? No clear line can be given. EB-5 law contemplates prospective jobs, so nexus is the key. Use of bridge loan stretches the nexus, but bridge loan can be used. Some sort of contemplation should be evidenced in deal docs and business plan. Simple refinancing of long-existing loan by EB-5 money will not be allowed because the "nexus" does not exist. Contemplation of using EB-5 money to pay off the initial funding is the key过桥贷款协议和商业计划里必须体现未来会使用EB-5投资。只是用EB-5资金替换早已存在的贷款是不允许的，因为投资和就业的关系不存在。What is the relevant date for sustaining investment? Statutes say CPR period, but regs say 2 years of CPR period. But this is not the reality because it may take longer than approval of I-829. Selling or liquidating investment before approving I-829 is not fatal. It's the connection between sustaining of the investment and job creation that is important, i.e., investment should be sustained until job-creation is completed. Even if jobs were terminated before I-829 for good faith purpose, i.e., bankruptcy, etc., I-829 can still be approved. Fact-specific. EB-5投资必须保持2年，829递交后，未批准之前撤资不一定会导致829拒绝。Rob Silvers: More policy issues. Whether and when is it appropriate for deal structure to return condos or time share interests to investors rather than cash? Cannot pre-adjudicate these issues. Such arrangement can "theoretically" be possible, but in practice, USCIS has not seen "approvable" cases because some sort of "at-risk" requirement is important, even though it doesn't have to be very risky investment. All investment amount must be theoretically at risk, but if the investors are lined up to receive condos, then this is not in compliance with this requirement. These kinds of structures have been denied and will probably be denied. 项目方返回公寓给投资人，而不是现金。这种情况一般会被拒。Second issue is on RFEs. USCIS wants to issue only one RFE and then approve or deny. But sometimes multiple RFEs are necessary because RFE responses may involve a re-working of the original economic modeling that was submitted, which raises a de novo adjudication. The new model may satisfy all concerns, but sometimes new questions may arise because of the change in economic model, which would raise additional RFEs and more months. USCIS is considering issuing NOIDs rather than RFEs in some situations. USCIS tries to catch all issues in one RFE.补料问题，一般移民局只有一次补料机会，但有时候，补料后会出现新问题，需要再补料。移民局现准备发出NOID(拒签通知）。移民局努力一次性补料，决定所有问题。Open Questions from Room:Q1: Can employees be located outside the census tract or TEA as long as the business is in TEA? As long as the principal place of business is in TEA, it's ok. What if HQ is in TEA but branches are outside TEA? Direct employees of NCE must be in TEA, but what if direct employees are one mile away from the TEA? USCIS may consider this issue.Does construction begin when the building is demolished or when a majority of construction work can begin.Q2: Why doesn't a general business plan for RC suffice anymore, rather than requiring too much details? What is the basis? I-924 need not be completely specific for all details, that much is true. However, whether I-924 comes to USCIS with skeletal outline or general outline, USCIS has an obligation to see by preponderance of evidence to be convinced that jobs number will be created. USCIS is responsible that green cards will be issued only where jobs will be created more likely than not, which is the preponderance of evidence standard. If I-924s for sketchy RC, then USCIS is doing a disservice to individual immigrant investors who sign on. Therefore, job creation and protection of investors play a role in USCIS' looking at the evidence. Reasonable economic methodology is the key.为什么区域中心的一个笼统的商业计划已经不再符合要求了，需要详细的商业计划？移民局有义务确信足够的就业会产生。移民局的责任是只能在就业非常可能产生的情况下批准绿卡。如果区域中心的申请简单笼统，移民局就对参加区域中心项目的投资人不负责。创造就业和保护投资人导致移民局审查项目的资料。合理的就业计算方法是关键。Q3: Will a RC with a hypo project rather than actual project be quicker? Yes, according to Blake Goto, for I-924 stage, but not at I-526 stage. When a hypo project is approved, then the underlying economic model is also approved, so that if the model changes, then of course I-924 amendment would be required.Q4: If there are direct jobs, then RIMS II expenditures model be no longer used per USCIS economist argument? Demand multiplier vs. expenditures final demand multiplier. USCIS will review this issue.按移民局的经济师的论点，要求直接就业的存在，那么RIMSII花费项目计算就不能使用了？ Q5: Premium processing for I-526 and checking I-829 online status being worked on? No for the first question. For 2nd issue, maybe in future. I-526加快申请现在没有计划做。Q6: How long to decide I-924 RC designation? USCIS will work on speeding up. Public Engagement email may be another avenue.Q7: Return of real investment concern has to do with a legal requirement that the money be "at risk".Q8: Tenant occupancy issue: What is the basis for USCIS for raising this issue? USCIS just wants people to submit thoughts but has not yet decided what to do.Questions from Phone:Q1: Unknown tenants -- how to write down 4 digits NAICs for retail tenant but not specific type of retail tenant? USCIS is going to address next month.Q2: Decisions on tenant-occupancy cases will be held until when? USCIS doesn't know the answer but understands the need for quick action.Q3: USCIS deference policy announcement. What kind of training provided to assure predictability? It was a reiteration, not a new issue.More Questions from Room:Q9: What factors cause USCIS to refer cases to SEC? USCIS has been working with SEC for sometime (one year) involving SEC issues. SEC has agreed to provide staff who will appear at future EB-5 Engagement, so the questions like this should be addressed to SEC rather than USCIS. USCIS does not want to get too deep into providing what factors cause USCIS to refer to SEC.Q10: Real estate investment given to investors. Past statement said developer can have an option, not investors can demand it. USCIS says this kind of arrangement is not so good.返还地产投资给投资人。以前的规定是开发商可以有这样的选择，但投资人不可以以此为条件？ 移民局说这种安排不太好。Q11: How long for "exemplar" project amendment? USCIS just says they will try to speed up.Q12: Why is Mayorkas' draft memo being delayed? Any timeline? Need to hone in further at another Conversation with Mayorkas, but another draft memo will be coming out "soon" after that.Q13: Deference Policy and its application. Exceptions: fraud, material change in facts or material error on prior decision. How are these being applied? If the prior adjudication was an error, then if USCIS keeps on re-adjudicating, then when is it appropriate to apply the due deference policy? Case-specific decision.移民局尊重以往的审批决定。例外：欺骗， 计划有实质性改变。 以前审批决定有实质性错误。Q14: Whether tourism or hospitality jobs are being stricken from all RCs per se? USCIS will review and get back.Q15: Why are I-526s pending even after 1 year, and why was this not communicated that this "hold" would be in effect? USCIS just says it tries our best, etc.Q16: Sustaining investment issue clarification: Usually, the two year CPR is the minimum, but it takes time to adjudicate I-829s, and there may be litigation, etc. What if NCE holds the money in a loan investment model? Can the money sit at NCE before I-829? USCIS will take a look this legal and policy dimension.Q17: If USCIS finds SEC violations with a RC, will USCIS itself consider a punitive action or just refer to SEC for investigation, i.e., decertify a RC? USCIS doesn't want to get into this because it's case specific. USCIS will not exclude a possibility of de-certifying. 如果移民局发现区域中心违反证券法，移民局是否会采取处罚行动，或者只是让 SEC介入调查？ 移民局不排除取消区域中心资格

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录zoe这个帖子很好，下面的open questions都没有答案的吗？

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录求汉化

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录Q4: If there are direct jobs, then RIMS II expenditures model be no longer used per USCIS economist argument? Demand multiplier vs. expenditures final demand multiplier. USCIS will review this issue.按移民局的经济师的论点，要求直接就业的存在，那么RIMSII花费项目计算就不能使用了？ 点击展开...如果EB-5移民项目必须创造直接就业的话，那些靠建筑花费就业来计算的项目就不见得符合要求了吧。这种项目好像在移民局的总部华盛顿很流行啊。如果建筑工期超过两年才可以计算直接就业，那这种项目的投资人的829绿卡两年创业条件就又悬了？移民局的经济师，新官上任，烧了租赁就业，又来烧花费就业吗（怪不得华纳项目也批不出来呢）？

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录移民局在今天会议一开始就说：关于租客创造就业的问题，是我们现在最优先的任务，但是，我们今天不谈这个，这个问题我们留到下个月由移民局局长Mayorkas先生专门开会和大家交流。实在佩服移民局的官僚啊。开会的具体时间不说，先抛出一个名堂来，再把局长先生搬出来，这个热的发烫的话题今天就算说完了。谁知道下个月到底能不能把这个会给开了。之前移民局还说要发布新的政策文件，从去年底就开始说要发布，一直拖，上次7月份开会还说3个礼拜出来。得，这次会议说，等“下个月开完会”之后的几个星期，我们再出一个“全面的政策草案”。这次多加了一个“全面”，不知道要等到哪一天才能看见“草案”了。

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录What is the relevant date for sustaining investment? Statutes say CPR period, but regs say 2 years of CPR period. But this is not the reality because it may take longer than approval of I-829. Selling or liquidating investment before approving I-829 is not fatal. It's the connection between sustaining of the investment and job creation that is important, i.e., investment should be sustained until job-creation is completed. Even if jobs were terminated before I-829 for good faith purpose, i.e., bankruptcy, etc., I-829 can still be approved. Fact-specific. EB-5投资必须保持2年，829递交后，未批准之前撤资不一定会导致829拒绝 这段话的意思是不是说：如果我递交了829后，我公司倒闭或者裁员，这并不影响我829的审批，只要我在拿到绿卡后2年中创造了10个就业？是这个意思么？ 也就是说，如果我的绿卡到13年6月2年，我于13年3月递交829， 当时有10个就业，到13年7月的时候就算我裁员了或者公司倒闭了，我的829仍然可以获批，这样对么？

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录What is the relevant date for sustaining investment? Statutes say CPR period, but regs say 2 years of CPR period. But this is not the reality because it may take longer than approval of I-829. Selling or liquidating investment before approving I-829 is not fatal. It's the connection between sustaining of the investment and job creation that is important, i.e., investment should be sustained until job-creation is completed. Even if jobs were terminated before I-829 for good faith purpose, i.e., bankruptcy, etc., I-829 can still be approved. Fact-specific. EB-5投资必须保持2年，829递交后，未批准之前撤资不一定会导致829拒绝 这段话的意思是不是说：如果我递交了829后，我公司倒闭或者裁员，这并不影响我829的审批，只要我在拿到绿卡后2年中创造了10个就业？是这个意思么？ 也就是说，如果我的绿卡到13年6月2年，我于13年3月递交829， 当时有10个就业，到13年7月的时候就算我裁员了或者公司倒闭了，我的829仍然可以获批，这样对么？点击展开...是这个意思！创造就业才是最重要的。

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录What is the relevant date for sustaining investment? Statutes say CPR period, but regs say 2 years of CPR period. But this is not the reality because it may take longer than approval of I-829. Selling or liquidating investment before approving I-829 is not fatal. It's the connection between sustaining of the investment and job creation that is important, i.e., investment should be sustained until job-creation is completed. Even if jobs were terminated before I-829 for good faith purpose, i.e., bankruptcy, etc., I-829 can still be approved. Fact-specific. EB-5投资必须保持2年，829递交后，未批准之前撤资不一定会导致829拒绝 这段话的意思是不是说：如果我递交了829后，我公司倒闭或者裁员，这并不影响我829的审批，只要我在拿到绿卡后2年中创造了10个就业？是这个意思么？ 也就是说，如果我的绿卡到13年6月2年，我于13年3月递交829， 当时有10个就业，到13年7月的时候就算我裁员了或者公司倒闭了，我的829仍然可以获批，这样对么？点击展开...是这样理解。这次会议对这个问题说了好几遍。资金投入只要2年整，不必维持到829批准。 企业正常经营失败，裁员，破产，不会影响829批准。但是投资人故意撤资，移民局会有怀疑，说10个就业原本是临时性的。这是我在电话录音上听到的话。就是说829申请以后撤资，只要不裁员，移民局没意见。如果企业经营失败，829申请后裁员，破产，移民局也会理解。

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录哈哈哈哈哈，重大利好啊！！！！为了表达我对移民局的感谢，我决定这个月就把10个全职给雇满了，哈哈哈哈

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录哈哈哈哈哈，重大利好啊！！！！为了表达我对移民局的感谢，我决定这个月就把10个全职给雇满了，哈哈哈哈点击展开... 侠女童心！

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录这就高兴成这样？仿佛看到烧钱滴血的煎熬情景。。。。。。God Bless You!请问就算移民局的电话会议这样说了，蔷薇你敢提前关掉公司吗？敢去冒这个险吗？移民局不受备忘录或者手册之类东西的约束，你也不能用它来为自己争取权利。这不是Law只是Lore.

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录哈哈哈哈哈，重大利好啊！！！！为了表达我对移民局的感谢，我决定这个月就把10个全职给雇满了，哈哈哈哈点击展开...还是把稳一点比较好，我也听了移民局的会议，他们讲话还是很保守的，人家的原话好像是不一定会判死刑 （Selling or liquidating investment before approving I-829 is not fatal）。 但是这毕竟会是一个很大的瑕疵，还是注意为好。

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录好贴，支持！！！！

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_9b5ae8640101ayqy.html这个可以看到10月16日的移民局会议内容

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录谢谢大家关心，目前为止我还没有到滴血烧钱的地步，相反从上个月开始我开始盈利啦，总算扭亏为盈了哈，这个月成立了一个新的部门，准备做最终用户和承包商的，所以10个人到下个月应该满了，曙光在前头啊~~ 不过我说句实话哦，如果不是这EB5的鞭策，我还下不了决心把摊子搞大，这下子被逼着把摊子搞大了，说实话反倒让公司机会更多了，从而感慨一下，很多时候真是塞翁失马啊~~

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录谢谢大家关心，目前为止我还没有到滴血烧钱的地步，相反从上个月开始我开始盈利啦，总算扭亏为盈了哈，这个月成立了一个新的部门，准备做最终用户和承包商的，所以10个人到下个月应该满了，曙光在前头啊~~ 不过我说句实话哦，如果不是这EB5的鞭策，我还下不了决心把摊子搞大，这下子被逼着把摊子搞大了，说实话反倒让公司机会更多了，从而感慨一下，很多时候真是塞翁失马啊~~点击展开...恭喜一下，变压力为动力了，这样下去，829过后说不定还要继续加人呢

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录谢谢大家关心，目前为止我还没有到滴血烧钱的地步，相反从上个月开始我开始盈利啦，总算扭亏为盈了哈，这个月成立了一个新的部门，准备做最终用户和承包商的，所以10个人到下个月应该满了，曙光在前头啊~~ 不过我说句实话哦，如果不是这EB5的鞭策，我还下不了决心把摊子搞大，这下子被逼着把摊子搞大了，说实话反倒让公司机会更多了，从而感慨一下，很多时候真是塞翁失马啊~~点击展开...

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录这就高兴成这样？仿佛看到烧钱滴血的煎熬情景。。。。。。God Bless You!请问就算移民局的电话会议这样说了，蔷薇你敢提前关掉公司吗？敢去冒这个险吗？移民局不受备忘录或者手册之类东西的约束，你也不能用它来为自己争取权利。这不是Law只是Lore.点击展开...等区域中心开始退款给投资人的时候，投资人看看手里的钞票，就知道谁在滴血烧钱了。。。现在看来，既能保绿卡，有保本金的区域中心项目几乎是没有的。Canam的项目好像是保了本金，但好多项目的绿卡也是靠转项目二进宫完成的。别的区域中心还没看见退款的呢，虽然区域中心项目起死回生是从2003年开始的，现在已经快10年了。又能保绿卡，又能退款的区域中心早就现形了。为什么现在中介还拿不出个这样的雷锋区域中心来呢？

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录你没看到就代表没有？大部分是2008-2009才开始的项目，大部分是不到还款期的。别混淆视听！你的意思Canam也算是学雷锋？拿这个来说中介的不是，更是莫名其妙，岂有此理！

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回复: 10/16 移民局Stakeholder会议记录2011年的5月4日就有收到项目50万美金还款的。到2012年9月，已是顺利迎来第五、第六批EB-5客人全额还款。其中第五个还款项目Canam基金费城Aker 造船集团扩产计划项目，第六个还款项目Canam基金 Comcast 项目。期间历经I-526申请获批、两年后I-829成功去条件、5年后获得全额还款的美国投资移民全过程。时至今日，曾经偶尔扬起的一些似是而非的质疑和传闻也同样成为了笑谈。

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